Posted by wrath000
Update:
MSN/ICQ is now possible via HTTP Gateways, however it is a MIDP1 solution which doesn't provide the true power of a real (socket) client, and relies on a HTTP gateway to do it's communication for it. IRC/FTP/telnet is still impossible. You can find a thread on CMessenger here
Original Post:
ICQ for java, IRC for java, MSN for Java. Multi-player games over GPRS internet. - These are some examples of JAVA programs a lot of people can use on their phones. The bad news for T610 owners is that they can't run ANY of the above mentioned software because of the bad JAVA implementation.
T610 does not provide socket support for JAVA which means that no application can access GPRS for reasons other then view a WAP page.
All major phone manufacturers have now announced at least one phone that will support Java MIDP 2. All except Sony Ericsson. And those that will not support MIDP2, at least support 'raw sockets' (which Sony Ericsson has also "forgotten") which enables their apps to connect to internet.
MIDP 2 doesn't only bring new features and better compatability, it also brings (to mention the two I consider the most important) - raw sockets (that's what java apps need to access internet) and bluetooth api's. I think it would be pretty sad if Sony Ericsson is the only phone producer with no MIDP 2 compatible handsets on the market.
I can't talk for others, but this is definetly a very major deciding factor for me, especially since the use of java applications on mobile handsets is only going to increase as the time goes by...
As most T610 owner probably found out by now, the JAVA functionality on the T610 is extremely limited. It doesn't allow any phone specific interaction or sockets.
Phone specific apis are required for software like BlueTooth remote control (or IR remote control for that matter).
Lack of socket implementation makes it impossible to run ICQ/MSN/IRC clients on the phone.
Basically T610 can only run the simplest of games/apps. While there might not be very many JAVA apps/services right now, I expect their ammount to increase drastically as more advanced JAVA phones start dominating the market. This will effectively render T610 incapable of competing in an already very competitive market.
[ This Message was edited by: wrath000 on 2003-09-01 13:54 ]
Posted by dw
I agree java aint much use unless it can connect to
and internet using gprs. I hope they will fix this in next software release for T610.
Posted by runkarn
It can connect to http:// but thats all... It's very sad that the java part of T610 is very limited. I also hope there will be a software upgrade with a better java implementation. It doesnt have to be 2.0 but at least support for sockets and jsr-82...
Posted by wrath000
That's true, they can give sockets:// and bluetooth support with the jsrs. But if they are going to be upgrading JAVA they might as well upgrade it to the level where it can compete or at least match up to other manufacturers products
Posted by sills
Are we able to upgrade to MIDP 2.0 when it is available for T610 via firmware or need to get a new T610?
Posted by wrath000
I see no reason why this upgrade couldn't be implemented in a firmware update. If not the Java MIDP 2, they could at least add the jsr support for socket/bluetooth/ir
The applications that require that support are many...and they are usefull.
Posted by runkarn
Also, it's not that important but it would be nice if they could use some own APIs like nokia and siemens do. For example, access to the camera...
SE JAVA[ This Message was edited by: runkarn on 2003-06-18 11:39 ]
Posted by wrath000
I think that all the T610 users who feel that is important to add better JAVA capability to the phone should post here. Maybe if enough of us want this, SE will upgrade the JAVA in a future firmware release.
Posted by roopi
there is definently something wrong with SE's implementation of java on t610. just discovered the t610 has 2 cpu's, a 8bit AVR at 12mhz and a ARM7 at 32mhz. check out all the j2me benchmarks, the t610 is the slowest of the bunch, even slower than seimens. these results don't settle with me too well :/
Posted by wrath000
The only benchmark results I found was for some game. It does not necessarily indicate the T610 JAVA overall performance. Could be an implementation bug or some incompatebility. If you know of any other benchmark results, please post them. I'd really like to find out more...
Posted by roopi
k o...
http://www.jbenchmark.com/
http://www.midlet-review.com/articles/jbenchmark.htm
http://www.abstractworlds.com/strangemaze/index.php
http://www.midlet-review.com/articles/benchmark.htm
3dmaze was 1fps on t610
http://www.j2me-software.com
theres a few benchmark apps on the above page needs to be tried out on a t610
sure hope its a implementation bug!!
Posted by sills
I noticed that there is a Bluetooth APIs for J2ME available for download @ java.sun.com
I've downloaded it.
Does this helps?
Posted by FRiC
Well, the T610 is really the first SE phone with Java implemented. P800 doesn't really count since that's an entirely different design with a different OS. So hopefully it will get better in a future firmware upgrade. Other manufacturers have had Java phones for ages...
Posted by wrath000
-> sills
It doesn't help to download the apis. The support has to be implemented in the firmware
-> roopi
These results do really look bad.
I don't really want JAVA for the games, I want it for the Apps. But with no speed (for games) and no functionality (for apps) JAVA on T610 does really seem like a big waste of space.... and money for that matter.
[ This Message was edited by: wrath000 on 2003-06-18 14:19 ]
Posted by sills
I see... so the APIs only for programming on windows / nix platforms?
Posted by wrath000
If the phone supports and api, then you can use it to program for the phone. So if T610 supported the BlueTooth jsr, you could have used the api to make a program that uses BlueTooth on the T610
Posted by runkarn
Again... -->
se java
Posted by rebel
even the java games on the phone are dragging slow...
the implementation is horrendous.
Posted by roopi
32bit 32mhz ARM7 processor should be more than adequate to run java apps at a good speed but the t610 is slow. leaves us only to conclude that its down to inefficient software or SE has incorporated their own variant of J2ME in which the apps need optimising for (just like siemens phones)
Posted by burger
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What processor does the T610 have? is it a old 8-bit(or 16-bit) ARM just like the T68i?
Posted by roopi
its 2 processors in the T610 according to sources from mophun:-
8bit AVR 12Mhz
16bit ARM7 32Mhz (but best to my knowledge ARM7 is 32bit wide)
Posted by wrath000
Well, I do hope it's just bad implementation thats at fault here. That means they would be able to fix it with firmware updates.
[ This Message was edited by: wrath000 on 2003-06-19 08:33 ]
Posted by wrath000
Does anyone know how proccessor speed of T610 compares to other phones?
Posted by ukchalky
Hi.. first post, so go easy!
I've been looking quite closely at the phones that are available at the moment, and I dont think that the lack of raw sockets is actually that surprising. Very few MIDP 1 phones provide the additional socket support (correct me if im wrong), including the majority of series 40 Nokias.
I've seen it mentioned in this post that it is probably possible for these things to be corrected via a firmware upgrade, but can any of you confirm if this is actually true?
I know that I want a t610, but I also know that I want instant messaging on my phone! SE are gonna lose sales over this!
Posted by englishpunk
The Java is painfully slow in the T610, really not worth using, in fact it's hard to understand why they bothered at all ( apart for conning people inot buying the phone because is supports java ), mophun is stupidly quicker and obviously supports multiple keypresses at once, which is handy for decent games.
I actually find the T610 itself slow at times, sometimes painfully so, so much it looks lie it has crashed, which probably doesn't help.
Back to the point though, they seriously need to overhaul java with at least access to GPRS ( for webviewer etc. ), sockets would be nice ( but as has been said, similar phones don't have the functionality either, only the siemens do i believe ), but at the moment there's really no point it in even being there
Posted by jackpipe
From a programming point of view, it seems it's possible do sockets with some java tricks -
- obviously this doesn't help for pre-packed software, but it would presumably allow specific versions of eg. jabber for t610.
Can anyone confirm that the http stuff works over GPRS, and that its just the lack of sockets on MIDP 1.0 that is the issue here ?
One post above hints that the webviewer doesn't work - as far as i know that only uses http, and so should work ok on midp 1.0, unless there's an additional T610 GPRS limitation ?
Posted by Cosinus
I agree that it's very disappointing, but do you guys think these posts here can realy motivate SE developers to fix these socket things? I'm not sure they will even read this thread
But anyway like I already said in one of the topics, it's one of the main things which hold me back from buying a T610.
Posted by c96sthl
Remember the intro page of T610 when SONYERICSSON put it on their CEBIT page?
It stated clearly ICQ client but later they take away tht piece of info.
Same happen to HBH35 which was in the list of accesories support by T610.
SO they might be high chance for firmware upgrd to let T610 run ICQ since HBH35 is in fact a real product and not typing error
Posted by wrath000
Now that you mention it... there is actually text-labels for AIM in the service menu...
Posted by Zacay
hmm didn't want to start a new thread so I used "Search" !!!
Well.. I mailed my contact and asked him if he could get me some answers, if our beautiful phone could get an update with Socket support ..
Can't we all sign a petetion, or every one sends a mail per day to SE support and ask and request this support
I am halfway of doing an MSN for java WITH socket support phones, hopefully this program will work on most java phones that has socket support... BAD FOR T610 if they never will add this support. .and bad for my cause I have to buy a new phone when I am done
Posted by vr
Wee need java that gives us all we can get from the phone..
u hear me SE??
Imagine your sales if u offer us a good functionality and great speeds..
SE owners are more brighter ones in community.. and can use tools u throw us to develop very good apps..
thiz would increase in sales..
think about SE
I am willing to let go all the bells and whistles like music DJ and some other crap.. we need java!!!
Posted by t610geordie
Hi all
Well I would definitly want some extra bluetooth programs that could make use of the extra features you have talked about so this is my signature to the petition to get an upgrade to allow access to blutooth layer via java for remote controls and who know...
Posted by wrath000
Music DJ is probably the most useless function in the phone. I could think of about a million better ways to use the memory space taken by it
Posted by dw
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webviewer works fine with my T610
Posted by Alasken
Very informative post, wrath000. I definetely want better Java. Hope some SE-guy reads this.
Posted by Sir-SonyEricsson-man
i want java2me om my T610
Posted by jpxdude
I've mentioned a couple threads over this issue before, I've noticed that the mophun applications have access to the IR and Bluetooth functions of the phone, im not sure about GPRS and Camera activity, but I'm pretty sure its possible!
The java on T610 is painfully slow, but I was in 2 minds about this getting rectified, because I thought everything was hard coded into the machine. Do you think it is possible for the phones java portion to be upgraded to include sockets? Midp2 would be brilliant, its got a much broader API, I've programmed Midp stuff before and it is severely limited, and only goes to serve as more of a gimmick on this phone, since features are very restricted, and memory is therefore tighter as individual routines have to be programmed too which sucks.
I hope SE can sort this issue out, especially for budding programmers, I know that 70-90% of users out there are aware how pap the java is on the phone, and its in serious need of upgrading. I think a Petition thread would be a good idea, im pretty sure some SE dude reads this stuff, coz Esato are highly regarded in the community!
Posted by Zacay
Maybe esato could make us a favour an put this thread as a sticky thread and BOLD and a text on the topic with a color
esato?? please!??
Posted by jpxdude
hehe, it'd be cool if they did do that, but I think they're mutual to all discussion and wouldn't wanna be part of any sides.
Posted by Zacay
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mmm yeah. .thats sux..
but .. I really want SE to read this and do something about this.. don't ignore us!!
If I knew this socket support wasn't supported I really wouldn't have bougth this phone.. I really thought the phone would have this supported... I am really thinking of buying 7250i, but I really don't want that.. I hate nokia.. but SE choice of not having the socket support really bugs me..
Remove Music DJ!!
Posted by jpxdude
Yes, SE have really done a doo doo on this one! java is the way forward, especially with all the gaming platform phones in development! e.g, N-Gage etc...
Posted by Alasken
Earlier today I sent SE a mail and asked if they have any plans of implementing better Java in a future firmware upgrade, and told them that a lot of people wish for that. This is the reply I got:
"Dear Consumer,
Thank you for contacting Sony Ericsson Customer Care Center.
I dont got any information about any comming updates but I will send it as a
suggestion for product development.
Best regards,
/Anders
Sony Ericsson Customer Care Center"
Posted by Zacay
Nice Alasken
Hope they do what they said on the email.. sometimes they just say stuff to calm us down a bit...
I am gonna send them an email too..
Posted by Alasken
Yeah, everyone who wants better Java should send SE an e-mail so they know we want it.
Posted by Trevsweb
im supprised everyone with a t610 hasnt signed this petition
Posted by pleber
Hello, I read this post here calling for sockets and better java on the t610.
So I made a petition at petitononline.com, and if you want better java, then sign it.
http://www.petitiononline.com/T610JAVA/petition.html
We need LOTS of people to sign it, and then send the petition to SonyEricsson. Its for people that own the T610 and people who are thinking about getting it.
Lots of people come to this board, so if we all sign it then we could be listened to. Also please post a link to the petition if you own a site etc... that would really help.
Even if you dont have the T610 or even want one, the faster SE sorts out JAVA on its phones, the better for every SE owner.
(I have made this a new Post in the General Board)
Posted by Launcher
Signed =)
Posted by Zacay
signed..
I hope this will convince them..
I really wonder if SE has java dev in their crew, don't they miss the socket support? or faster java? or do they care? they just want to list up functions on the phone!?
As in their website they list that the email client has emails with attachments.. but they don't tell you that it only can see if there is an attachment or not.. If I knew that it didn't have socket support nor attachments in email client I would never bought this phone..
I have always loved SE, but this is the first time I get dissapointed.. ironically with their best phone.. I just expected to much from their "dev's"
But maybe after they see our demands.. things can change
[ This Message was edited by: Zacay on 2003-08-03 11:55 ]
Posted by Alasken
Yeah, I'm a little surprised as well. It's the sort of thing you expect from Nokia, not SE.
Posted by wrath000
I am under the impression that
is putting much more effort in supporting and promoting Mophun then JAVA. It appears that Mophun is the platform of their choice, while JAVA support was added to T610 only to satisfy the "power users".