Posted by Macidonian22
Macidonia Is greece
Posted by EastCoastStar
Rome is Italy
EastCoastStar is USA
Posted by baja462
sydney is australia???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
only prob is im in the wrong forum!
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[ This Message was edited by: baja462 on 2005-07-12 09:14 ]
Posted by Vlammetje
I know Macedonians who don't feel they are Greeks at all...
Posted by Clearday
Posted by boto43
I thought that Macedonia is independent state somewhere between serbia and greece or albania.Now I don't know but maybe part of Macedonia belongs to Greece.
Posted by Clearday
no, part of greece belongs to Macedonia...
Posted by djole89
No, no, no.......
Macedonia was a province in ancient Greece, and then, when Philip the II was the king of Macedonia, he conquered the rest of ancient Greece and his son, Alexandar the great conquered the Persia, current Turkey untill he reached India, and so on.....
Now, Greeks don't love Macedonians, because they took the name of their province. Macedonians are not a separate people, they are also Serbs, but they only talk little different....
Why do you think that Macedonia isn't just Macedonia, but it is FYR Macedonia? Because the Greeks didn't let them to take the name of their province.
That map shows current country Macedonia and province in Greece. Current FYR Macedonia is much smaller.... And they also have problems with Albanian terrorists in the north part of country towards Kosovo wich is already filled with Albanians......
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[ This Message was edited by: djordje1yu on 2005-07-19 19:34 ]
Posted by grca73
| Quote: |
|
HEHE and chinese are not separate people, they are also Serbs, but they only talk a lot different, look different, are different...
Posted by gelfen
Macedon was not an ancient greek province, but an independent kingdom formed in the 7th century BC, which became politically aligned with the rest of ancient greece in th 5th century BC. while much of the macedonian aristocracy did have greek blood, the common people were generally considered to be of a different race and origin.
prior to the expansion under Phillip II, Macedon occupied approximately the same area as the "province" of macedonia in modern greece, but under his reign grew to include the region currently referred to as fyr macedonia (btw - the reason it's called fyr is because it only constitutes the regions liberated after the breakup of yugoslavia and not in greece). the sovreignty or otherwise of macedonia has been clouded in the 20th century since the Balkan Wars, due to concerted propaganda efforts by the various countries which claimed macedonian territory in the treaty of bucharest (including serbia, greece, albania, and in post-WWII times yugoslavia) to appropriate macedonian historical icons, pass off macedonian as a language fabricated in the 20th century, and even deny the very existence of the name macedonia.
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[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2005-08-02 09:31 ]
Posted by Qoastro
FYR Macedonia
Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia
Posted by JK
Beautiful woman there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Redback
Snap out of it gelfen al least get your facts right before posting.
Macedonia is a Greek name & Ancient Macedonia always was a part of Greece just like Athens, Sparta, Thebes, and hundreds of others. They were considered Hellenes(Greeks) by the rest of the Hellenes and competed in the Olympic Games(Only Greeks could participate).
They were only called barbarians as an insult.
If Macedonians weren't Greek then answer these few questions.
Why are ALL ancient MAcedonian artifacts, coins etc written only in Greek?
Why did ALexander The Great spread ONLY the Hellenic culture in the lands he conquered?
Why do today's so called "Macedonians" in FYROM speak a Slavic language? - Slavs arriven in Europe in 600AD, hundreds of years after the Greeks were already there.
Macedonian not being Greek is like Tasmania not being Australian cause some of us consider them backward.
Learn some history not Slavic-FYROM propoganda.
Posted by gelfen
@redback: i really don't want to get into an argument over this. i gather from some of your other posts that you are of greek descent, so there is practically no way i can win this argument. tbh i don't particularly care enough to try. suffice it to say that none of what i stated previously could be said to come from "macedonian" sources, and is considered fact by a vast majority of neutral historians - irrespective of the official position of the greek government.
the above notwithstanding, i will address a few points:
They were considered Hellenes(Greeks) by the rest of the Hellenes and competed in the Olympic Games(Only Greeks could participate).
as i said, the ancient macedon aristocracy were considered hellenic but the common people were not. it was only the aristocracy, and particularly royalty, who were allowed to participate in the olympic games. there are a number of ancient historians who considered the macedons to be a separate people, even if they were politically and militarily allied with ancient greece.
Why are ALL ancient MAcedonian artifacts, coins etc written only in Greek?
there is certainly a high degree of similarity between the languages because they derive from the probably same route, and coexisted for a long period, but there are a number of differences that cannot be reconciled with the greek language. the confusion about the exact relationship between ancient greek and ancient macedonian is due to the dirth of ancient macedonian artefacts.
Why did ALexander The Great spread ONLY the Hellenic culture in the lands he conquered?
because it was the premier culture at the time, and consisted of the most advanced scientific and philosophical thinking of the age. he was, after all, educated by hellenic scholars. there is a common misconception that hellenic and greek are interchangeable. while they are often used as such it is not strictly accurate.
Why do today's so called "Macedonians" in FYROM speak a Slavic language? - Slavs arriven in Europe in 600AD, hundreds of years after the Greeks were already there.
because languages evolve with time, and adapt to include the words and expressions of neighbouring peoples. additionally, the use of the macedonian language (however you want to define it) was outlawed by the yugoslavian and greek governments. incidentally it's not an entirely slavic language, and was recognised as an independent language by greek authorities as recently as the 1920s, which is interesting considering what i say below.
a few other points to ponder:
1. the view that macedonians and greeks are of like ethnicity is an almost purely 20th century phenomenon. in fact 18th and 19th century greeks considered the macedonians as former conquerors.
2. between 1913 and 1988 it was official greek government policy that the area now called macedonia, and the macedonian language, did not and had never existed. the area was only referred to as "northern greece", and it's inhabitants as greek. it was only the burgeoning rise of FYROM that prompted a shift in policy to one of "Macedonia is 4000 years of Greek history". i wonder how this latter claim could be true if it didn't exist pior to 1988.
3. to this day, the greek governement denies the existence of any ethnic minorities within it's borders - be they macedonian, serbian, bulgarian, turkish, german, french, etc., and continues to deny them basic human rights. the only acknowledged minority is religious (the muslims of thrace).
anyway, i'm not going to argue because it's all a bit pointless. believe whatever you want.
Posted by Krubach
I think this is a political thread.
I understand the first post as a greek claiming that Macedonia should be merged/absorbed with/by Greece.
Posted by Redback
LOL is this guy gelfen for real?
You don't wanna get into this, you don't care, there's no way you can win this argument cause I'm Greek etc etc then you post more missleading info?!
Not only the aristocracy were considered Hellenic but ALL Macedonians were considered their same kin. Yes there are historians who believe the opposite but there are even more historians who believe the turh. So which ones are right and why do you choose to believe the Slav version? Politically and militarily allied with Ancient greece? WTF you on about they WERE part of Ancient Greece.
Everything in Ancient Macedonia is currently found in the state of Greece, in Ancient greek. Sure the Macedonians had their Greek dialect but let me tell you as someone who speaks greek practically every different region of Greece has its own dialect, just like the Ancient times.
Yes believe it or not, MEGAS ALEXANDROS spread his OWN culture around the conquered lands not because it was the premier culture because it was his own. There are countless qoutes about Alexander quoting his own Greekness. He burnt down babylon(?) in retaliation of past Persian destruction of Athens - far from Pella, Macedonia, which is his birthplace.
So you reckon the Slavic-"Macedonian" language is not entirely Slavic?! LMFAO! Why don't you ask a Bulgarian if he understands "Macedonian"?
And finally, you think you know Greek history from reading FYROM propoganda sites or your Skopyian mates probably told you this one... Mate let me assure you, Northern Greece has A-L-W-A-Y-S been reffered to as MAKETHONIA(Macedonia). I should know my dad is from Northern Greece. I have old school textbooks with Macedonia being in Northern Greece printed way before 1988. How come my dad, and granddad know that Macedonia is in Northern Greece(NOT North OF Greece) and always has been in Northern Greece. The Greek government OFFICIALLY named the province Macedonia in 1988 but it's always been Macedonia. Just like Uluru & Ayers Rock.
Gelfen it's obvious your anti-Greekness clouds your judgment, You sound a bit smart so do the smart thing and look at BOTH sides' argument not just 50% of the story. You're probably the typical Aussie who laughed for years at Greece's preparations of the olympics then had a rude shock when they were so successful. Oh wait, apparently nobody went to them lol always have to find something to bag the greeks lol.
Anyway anybody reading this and who actually wants to find out the truth and what the conflict is about... I haven't got time to post all details but these websites are good because they just state facts, historicall evidence and common sense.
http://www.real.macedonia.gr/
http://www.greece.org/themis/macedonia/
http://www.macedonia.com/
Of course look at the Slavic FYROM sites like Gelfen has as well to understand their ridiculous arguments and then believe what you want to believe. Your ignorance is your problem not mine. At least LOOK at ALL FACTS, EVIDENCE before you make yourself an expert in this subject.
Krubach- Olla, No,Greece does not want any land from our tiny neigbour to the North. All we want for Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to do is to stop using the name Macedonia because it's already a Greek name and has been used by Greeks for thousands of years. They are not Greeks in FYROM they are Slavs. FYROM was called "Vardaska" until about 1944 when Tito renamed it Macedonia in order to claim Greek land in the future. in Imagine if Spain breaks up into several little states and a new state next to Portugal named them selves Lisbon and tried to claim Lisbons history as their own? I Know, stupid isn't it!!
[ This Message was edited by: Redback on 2005-08-31 14:15 ]
Posted by Krubach
Bullseye!!!
I said it was politics...
Posted by Sammy_boy
.....And we have us a potential flame war!!
It's nearly as emotive as smoking, speaking of which.... think I might go have a crafty one
Posted by gelfen
@krubach: i know - which is why i don't really want a part of it. unfortunately i also have a tendency to try correcting obvious fallacies (not everything redback said falls in that category, but more on that later).
@sammy: no flaming from me
for the record - i am not anti anything except anti-ignorance and anti-intolerance.
i will respond properly to redback's post later.
Posted by Redback
You guys are geniuses! How did you figure out that it's politics? LOL no shit, obviously it's about politics. What we have is a people with no identity trying to steal another people's identity & history. People are so missinformed about the Macedonian issue, they think Greece is the aggressor and wants to invade FYROM to take more land.
Nothing could be further from the truth! Greece is one of the most pacifist, peaceful nation on earth. Greece could invaded FYROM anytime it wanted but it has no desire to. We don't want their land, we don't want their people. On the contrary, FYROM believe Greece is occupying their land! Land which has been Hellenic since before Christ!They are a mixture of Serbs,Bulgarians & Albanians. Greece is actually helping FYROM and is their biggest investors. And all Greece asks for in return is to stop using the Hellenic name Macedonia and stop teaching false history in schools about territorial claims against Greece.
Gelfen why are you so interested in the issue if you have no Greek or Slav heritage? Are you studying history? If you're a nuetral person then you have to look at both sides. So before you respong, READ the links I gave earlier. Understand Greece's position on this issue. And stop posting lies about Greece.
Yes Greece recognises its minorities. It's a Muslim minoirty in Thrace numbering around 300,000. They are mostly Turkish origin, but there are also Gypie Muslims and a sizeable Pomak Muslim population. So they are recognised as Greek Muslims, not a minoirty. The 1923 Treaty of Lusuane dictates this. Other than them there are immigrants, people who have gone to Greece recently but not enough to establish a minority. Greece was around 98% Greek until recently but an influx of legal & illegal Albanians has probably brought it down to 92% Greek.
Oh also FYROM propagandists claim there are millions of "Slav Macedonians" misstreated in the Greek province of Macedonia. So being the founder of democracy, Greece has even let them "misstreated" Macedonians form & vote for their own party. Last count was 5000 in the last election. What's so unbelievable is not really the fact that such laughable claims on (Greek)Macedonia are happening, it's that there are people out there who actually believe them!!
Posted by djole89
| Quote: |
FYROM was called "Vardaska" until about 1944 when Tito renamed it Macedonia |
I must correct you on this one mate. Before WWII there was not Macedonian people between Slavcs and their territory (today FYR Macedonia) was repute as South Serbia, and people were repute as Serbs. Josip Broz Tito gave them their nationality, and I don't agree with that decision.
Everithing else that you said is correct.
PS: Sorry for my bad English.
Posted by tranquil
I just can't believe this topic has taken off like this?
Macidonian22 Started a topic with nothing more than 3 words and never returned to discuss the matter. To me this is a stirer who just post once to never return.
I honestly see no reason to keep this topic open?
Posted by Redback
| Quote: |
|
Yes I know it was part of Serbia & just called South Serbia, but the region was called Vardaska or some spelling variant. Sorry, should've put that part in. And yes Tito's decision to rename South Serbia into "Macedonia" and invent a "new" nationalitywas meant for future land claims against Greece. Tito was actually Croatian anyway so he wouldn't care about splitting Serbia.
P.S. Your English is fine
Posted by djole89
Tito was very good while he was alive. But when he died, he left very unstable country. He done everithing to rise Croatians when country fall apart (everybody knew that it would happen sooner or later). He gave Croatians sea, he shrinked Serbian country (he gave Serbian territories to Bosnia and some to Croatia), he made Macedonian nationality, he gave Kosovo its autonomy wich Albanians used to take it over slowly.....
I bet he is laughing from hell now.....
...but that is not topic here.....
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[ This Message was edited by: djordje1yu on 2005-09-05 20:52 ]
Posted by PsYcHeDeLiX
I can personally acknowledge that Macedonia is not a "Greek" name. The meaning of the name constitutes of an ancient linguistic form unique to Macedonians, their region and heritage. Mak-e-don is verbally formed by the words Maekin-dom which means "Motherland" even in present Macedonian. Even the currency used, "Den-ar" clearly means: a day's earning for work. Maeka, the word, meaning mother, is used all through the so called Slav tongue. Many Russian educators, such as my professor would gladly accept that the language which they speak today, is in fact a derivative from the ancient language spoken by Alexander of Makedon and his dynasty. Much of the linguistics have circled towards Northern Europe and Asia (Himalayan Regions) forming the common so called 'Slav' language. In that time of politics, Greece the name, or even an empire for that matter, did not exist. It's a modern concept of the union of provinces, and has no place in ancient significance. This is just scratching the surface of such relevance to this much debated topic. I am currently studying at the Institute of Historical and Philosophical Sciences - University of Toronto. What I learn here exhibits a true nature of Historical Science, and not ignorance. I have both, Greek and Macedonian friends, they always bring this political debate to the table, however it's merely a joke to them. I decided to research this much debated topic and I still haven't found conclusive evidence to back the extremities of both arguing parties. Through time, propaganda has fabricated much of what is written, and passed on by oral tradition today. Greek propaganda has the upper hand as the Greeks were freed of Turkish rule before the Macedonians. Their freedom has be founded the Greek nation a head start in this race of rebuilding what was. Allot of factors are at play, I am only stating what is relevant to modern time, I would gladly like to share my findings with others interested to discuss this topic. I'm not looking for ignorance as such displayed by RedBack, but am seeking insightful discussions like gelfen has portrayed.
= )
[ This Message was edited by: PsYcHeDeLiX on 2005-09-29 09:17 ]
Posted by BlueQuill
GWB is OBL.
Posted by Redback
Actually Psychedelix the word MACEDONIA means TALL ONE in Ancient Greek. How on earth could you be a professor and NOt know a simple fact like that? IF you have studied it like you say you have then why would you disregard actual facts like this one and believe the Slav version?
Shit, if you really do what you say you do than it's scary to think that there's ignorant people like you in Canada teaching your own version of events because you have read 50% of the debate. But continue living in your own world and keep turning a blind eye to the truth. I haven't got time to educate people like you nor am in a position to debate with a "professor".
Why don't you actually READ the links I gave in the earlier posts and debunk those facts if you can.
Here's some of them again in case you missed them.
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/
http://www.macedonia.info/
http://truth.macedonia.gr/
Since you are very interested in the issue then I'm sure you'll thank me for those sites to expand your limited knowledge. Or maybe you already know the Greek facts but choose to ignore them to believe the Slav claims. Which makes you just biased & close-minded.
So just look at the sites and give me your answers.
[ This Message was edited by: Redback on 2005-09-30 00:48 ]
Posted by gelfen
i think the problem is those links be just as easily dismissed as greek propaganda. this is a no-win debate, much like the israeli-palestince conflict, because the truth has become so obscured by politics as to be unrecognisable.
at the risk of sparking another diatribe, i find it interesting that when under turkish rule the area now contested as macedonia was recognised even by the sultan as a seperate nation and political entity under his rule. this is verifiable from several historical documents.
Posted by Redback
What was the population distribution of Macedonia, the
Republic of Skopje, and parts of Bulgaria in the years of Otto-
man rule?
In 1912 Greeks and Bulgars living in the Ottoman Empire agreed on
the number of members to the Ottoman Parliament each group would
select. It was agreed that in each Vilaet (Regions of the Otto-
man Empire) the number of Greek and Bulgarian representatives
would be as follows.
Vilaet of Adrianoypoli Greeks 8 Bulgarians 1
" of Thessaloniki and
Monastirion Greeks 10 Bulgarians 5
" of Cossyphopedio Greeks 0 Bulgarians 2
(Kosovo)
No references to other Slavs, nor any protests of any kind, were
filed after the elections. It can thus be assumed that the
Greek:Bulgar as well as Greek:Slav proportion of the population
in these vilaets was reflected in this arrangement.
Other (mainly of non-greek origin) sources from which one can
draw conclusions on the population of various ottoman ruled
areas are:
An Italian, Amadore Virgili, in "La questiona roma rumeliota"
(1907, page 107) gave the following statistics for the population
of the two vilaets of Thessaloniki and Monastirion.
Thess:Greeks 362,000, Turks 423,500, Bulgars 198,000, Serbs 1400
Monast:Greeks 280,000, Turks 223,000, Bulgars 143,000, Serbs 6070
A German General [Von Der Golt in "Balkanwirren und ihre grunde"
(1904)] who served in Turkey and organised the Turkish Army
claimed the following statistics for the two vilaets:
Muslims 730,000, Greeks 580,000, Bulgars 266,000, Serbs 19,000,
Jews 60,000
Therefore a statement that Macedonia was predominantly "slavic"
(with slavs like the ones residing in nowadays Skopje) seems to
be incorrect. Nowadays Macedonia in Greece included parts of the
two vilaets of Thessaloniki and Monasterio. Parts of the
Monasterio vilaet today belong to Albania and Republic of SKopje.
Parts of the Thessaloniki vilaet to Rep. of Skopje and Bulgaria.
There was a third vilaet, that of Skopje extending north in
today's southern Serbia.
There are various other statistics that more or less agree with
these figures.
There are also figures given by 4 writers that are quite strange.
According to the following
author there were:
Goptchevitch Greeks 201,140 Bulgar 57,600 Serbs 2,048,320
V. Kantcheff Greeks 225,152 Bulgar 1,184,036 Serbs 700
M. Brancoff Greeks 190,047 Bulgar 1,172,136 Serbs -
Zolotovich Greeks - Bulgar 1,334,583 Serbs -
It is not very difficult to guess the nationalities of the 4
writers.
Other figures on the population of these two vialets (also extra-
polated from the number of schools and pupilsa attending these
schools) are the following ones (some of the authors counted only
specific groups of people such as Bulgars and/or Greeks).
(figures are in thousands)
Gr: Greeks Bu:Bulgars Se:Serbs
Speliotopoulos Gr 731 Bu 232
Fokas " 636 " 348
Virgilli " 642 " 341 Se 16.5
Nikolaides " 655 " 332 " 22.8
VOn der Golts " 580 " 266 " 19
V. Colocotroni " 572 " 253
Ecum. Patr * " 650 " 332 " 12
Hilmi Pasa ** " 664 " 391 " 30
* Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
** Hilmi Pasa, Turkish Governor(??).
After the population exchanges in the 1920s, ~380,000 Turks left
Greece and 538,253 Greeks came to Macedonia from Asia Minor. In
1919 in the treaty of Neuilly it was decided that the Bulgarian
population residing in Greece would immigrate to Bulgaria and the
Greek population living in Bulgaria would immigrate to Greece by
1924. The time limit was extended to 1932 after through an appli-
cation of the Bulgarian Government which the then Greek Govern-
ment accepted. Approximately 66,000 Bulgars left Greece at that
time according to a report of the League of Nations (the precur-
sor of the United Nations). About ~52,000 Bulgars left Greece.
Given that the 1928 Greek census gives for Macedonia a population
of 1,412,477 this means that there were close to 850,000 Greeks
in Macedonia before the arrival of the Greeks from Asia Minor.
Considering the annual population increases one can conclude
that an estimate of at least 660,000 for the Greeks in the two
vilaets of Monasterio and Thessaloniki (and of Macedonia) is a
quite accurate one.
Source: http://history.macedonia.gr/faq.htm#21
Posted by Redback
The Rosetta Stone
What is the Rosetta Stone??
The Rosetta Stone is a slab of black basalt carved with an inscription in three alphabets. It was discovered in 1799 near the town of Rosetta in Egypt. While working to restore old fortresses for Napoleon's invading army, Captain Pierre-François Bouchard uncovered the stone and recognized it as a valuable linguistic clue.
The Rosetta Stone was originally carved in 196 BC, during the reign of Pharaoh Ptolemy V. The stone is typical of the period, in which complimentary inscriptions praising the Pharaoh for his virtues were common. Because Egypt had recently been conquered by the Greeks, the Rosetta Stone's inscription was written in both Egyptian and Greek. The Egyptian portion was written in both demotic -- a type of common, everyday alphabet -- and the more ancient and formal hieroglyphs.
The Ptolemic pharaohs were all descendants of General Lagus, friend and ally of conqueror Alexander the Great. Therefore, they were ethnically Greek rather than Egyptian. At the time of the Rosetta Stone's inscription, both Greek and Egyptian languages were used in Egypt. Interestingly, Alexander the Great is buried in the Egyptian city named for him, Alexandria.
When Egypt became a vassal state of the Roman Empire, ruled by a Roman governor, hieroglyphs fell into disuse, and by the fourth century AD the writing system was lost. At the time that the Rosetta Stone was rediscovered, hieroglyphs were indecipherable. Some people even thought they weren't a language at all, but some iconic form of decoration. With the Rosetta Stone, it was possible to decipher the demotic from the Greek, and then the hieroglyphs from the demotic.
The Rosetta Stone was translated and deciphered by Jean François Champollion, a French linguist of amazing ability. He began work on the translation in 1808, when he was eighteen, and in 1822 published his translation of the Rosetta Stone. His breakthrough was in realizing that the images that made up hieroglyphs were used not only as pictures to represent ideas, but also as letters that represented specific sounds, much like American Sign Language. Thus words that did not have a pictorial representation in the alphabet could be spelled out. Proper names of individuals were spelled out in this way, and names were differentiated from other text by being enclosed in a rectangle with rounded corners, called a cartouche.
Once the Rosetta Stone had led to the translation of hieroglyphs, all the inscriptions in the myriad tombs and monuments of ancient Egypt were once more possible to read.
Source: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-rosetta-stone.htm
Posted by puppy22
the only think i would like to add is that it's wrong to use the words "Greece, Greek, Greek language". the correct words are: "Hellas, Hellenian, Hellenic language".
You will see NO word such as greek, greece, or any other word made up by those in ANY official letter or in ANY official announcement or in ANY official speech from the goverments in Hellas hundreds of years now.
I remind you that the word "Macedonia" has that form due to the English translation and as every word in any language, in English they try to define it with the latin alphabet.
Therefore the original word for what we today call Macedonia is: Makedonia.
If you look for the root of that word you will find the root RedBack gave.
Also i remind you that decades ago, there was a voting taking place in United Nations about the international Official language that all countries will use as the main language between the speech between them. Untill then it was French the one.
English took 1 more vote against the Hellenic which had one less. The reason that the voting was between English and Hellenic was that the first, is one of the easiest languages to learn due to it's simplicity of grammar, and the Hellenic language because 31% percent of the words used have a Hellenic root, almost 63% of the modern languages derives from some form of ancient hellenics, and because it's the only one, of the mother languages of the world that is not dead.
So we might all consider to look behind the meannings that modern words giving us. Offcourse it's politics, but on the other hand i have never heard or read in this topic any reason why the name: "Macedonia" isn't Hellenic.
I believe that propaganda exists in countries that are often aims to expand their boarders. Unfortunately for those who believe that a "Greek propaganda" exists i have to inform them that Hellas since the ancient times and until recently just afte WW1, the boarders of Hellas are constantly DECREASING...!!!
I have to remind you that even nowadays Turks, our neighbors are producing maps, that include in their territory, Chios, Lesbos, Kastelorizo, Rhodos... islands that you know that belong to Hellas cause you have been there for summer vacations...! On the other hand if a Hellenian says in a forum that that is wrong, for some reason the rest of the world says that it's a "Greek propaganda". By the way the word Greek cames from the french word grek (i do not know the french spelling), and that is caming from one the turkish two owrds using to define Hellenians during the 400 hundred years they were in Hellas: grekos and unan.
So before say anything i would prefer to look first into both sides arguments and try to find the truth (mostly somewhere in the middle) and not necessarily look into independent and international accepted historians cause as we know the history is written always from the winner and not the losser...! otherwise you driving crazy the Hellenians and forcing them to use expresions like: "There are two kind of people; Greeks and those who where wish to be Greeks".
So let put all the pieces together before saying anything, otherwise our opinion doesn't count.
Posted by FluffyBunny
So hellas, greece, ellada... is it really that important?!
Lots of things are made into english terms.
Besides: Go Greece
Posted by *Jojo*
I really loved seeing the movie "Troy" (Brad Pitt/Peter O' Toole). In a way some Greek warriors were shown in that flick !
Posted by jcpsad
somehow it is really nice reading this thread and learning new things, history facts that is...
Posted by superfot
i m not so good at english but i will try so dont laugh at me for my english
Before the word Greece,hellas(english word)ELLADA,ELLAS,ċëëçí(greek word)were used(the word use for the origin and when greeks started to have the united feeling that they must be united to face the different dangers) they were tribes(athinaioi-athens,spartiates-sparti,troy-troes,makedonia-macedones......for example like newyork-newyorkers) with the same origin(and they know they have the same origin(greek origin (eliniki) origin)who compete each other in everything (make war each other and of course the enemies of greece take advantage the "civil war" and only under the same danger the tribes were united to face enemies thats why they invented olympic games so they stop fight each other as soldiers and play atheltic games so they prove which is better)
spartans were good in war,athens were in philoshophy,art......IN DIFERENT TIME PERIODS some tribes have the power an be something like capital of greece in different time periods, so we all know and they teach in the schools all over the world(i m sure not in skpojia)about the democracy that invented in athens,philoshophy,art,astronomy.......etc,the time that athens were the first power in the greek area(the same origin) between the other tribes(thats not the pefect word -tribe to describe)the other tribes have not power as athens and they were less civilized,of course they were good in other things for example warior skills like spartans.Athens understimate the other tribes because they didnt live civilized and they were farmers who live in villages(the most of the tribes were farmers except athens)thats why when you see the movie alexander the great sometimes the wariors of alexander an his father say "we the sons of villages manage to conquer the biggest enemy of greece persia(the today iran)" and athens didnt manage to do it
the time athens lose his power and makedonia[(one tribe of greece among at lot with the same origin greek the tribe's city was makedonia alexanders city before him his father philip was king it was placed in todays northern territories of Greece till the boarders with
albania,bulgaria,skpojia(fake macedonia)] gained power and move the capital of greece to his city makedonia with alexander the great king and he manage to unite all the tribes(except lakedemonion) and finally conquer persia(a dream of athens which became true from the tribe athens understimated) and they spread their civilasation(greek civilasation) all over the world and they conquer the known world which the citizen were all kind of origin not in greek area(the today greece with bulgaria,serbia,albania,turkey) but in the area alexander conquer
alexander was educated in athens because athens was civilasation center of greece.
after alexander the great death the empire was splitted and gradully the empire lose his power an generally GREECE(all tribes) lose their power
then we have roman empire conquer greeks(first greek area and the way longer than greek area) qradually(today italian origin) who understand how important is the greek knowledge and take advantage
of course the didnt just copy the greek cilisation they adopted the greek way of thinking,educating and in some levels they manage to be better and continue the greek cilvilasation greek were slaves in that time but in better way was faced by romans than other slaves because roman was saying"we conquer greeks with guns but they conquer us with their civilisation"
after roman empire(rome lose his power and influence) losing his power the new rome byzantium were founded by greeks in constantinoupole also named poli which means city(today instanbul) the byzantium empire was from.... see the map http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/worldhis/map17.gif
when byzantum starting lose his power(of course they were alot of other invaders before turkish,turkish are the last) turkish invade byzantium we were slaves for 400 hunder years till 1821 which we started revolution we manage to take back from turkish a small part from today greece(we had help for phillhellenist) and then we joined our powers as one power (greece,serbia,boulgaria,montenegro) with other minorities which were under the otomman possesion so we manage as team to win the ottoman and then divide the parts we win the bigest took greece and others smallest parts the other countries
Greece today has the biggest part of ancient makedonia another smaler part bulgaria,another smaller part albania and another the smallest actually skopjia only because they live in a small part of alexanders city(Ancient makedonia) they try to convince that they come from alexander origin which actually they have slavic origin) and they have fake maps lke that http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/images/64.jpg in the net wich that means that i live in skopjia(fyrom)
thats real official worlwide history of course i have some mistakes im not history expert but i try to keep the meaning and is written in avery very very...........collective way so i dont have to write a whole book.
greece is surrender by "enemies first turkey,second bulgaria,albania who want to extend and skopjia which they think they come from alexander the great and they named their country macedonia,skopjia because they live in a small part of ancients makedonian land has support from us not because u.s goverment is interested in historical truth but because the have economical and militairy interests.
sorry for my english
Posted by FluffyBunny
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*lol* Yeah, I'm glad that it's following the written story soooo weell!!!
Posted by FluffyBunny
Speaking about democracy - it's fascinating that slaves and women had no vote in the fair lands of ancient Greece.
I'd say that many need to live in the present instead of ~2000 years back in time. Especially for Greece that has very real issues to deal with when it comes to people's social well-being, retirement funds, the joining of Turkey in the EU and so on.
Not to speak about FYR Macedonia, I'd say: change name, get over it and start building a new future for you and your countrymen.
Though, speaking about living in the present; states such as FYR Macedonia, Albania and even Greece are very young as it comes to being "independent" states without either communistic or otherwise running dictators / systems.
So, I hope that it'll get better - in all ways.
Posted by superfot
the philoshophists believe that woman and man are the same and they were the first who sayed that all the people are the same(i heard they did something like tests in different genre of people in slaves comparison to athens citizen first they teach them the same thingsand then they test them i know its not the best ),that earths shape is round but goverment of ancient athens goverment support a philoshopher that suits them so every philoshopher who was against that philoshopher and say his otherwise opinion(about a philoshophing matter) in public it would killed of course tha happened only in years of declesion they same hapened with roman empire which lose his power due to corruption nand the came the declesion
they were tribes(greek origin who had women as leaders and godesses like amazones and women had the upper hand in everything...
its better to have some disanvantages and a lot o avantages(the start of civilisation who tought all over the world in everything from science to politics,the way of living studing and the perfect mathematically language (which sciences(not only greeks)say there is no way this language made by humans) than living in caves like other countries-tribes and communicate with gibber and wait greeks to teach them the civilisation
ancient greek world was not perfect but it was the start of everything together with egyptians and chinesse
when christe came change a lot and give accoutrements to make the world better.......
im not racist and i will never be the best human i meet in my life is turkish and not greek you can not judge people from their goverments also about macedonia when i go to england(visit my uncle) i visit a museum and there was a an ancient shield of great alexander who was written from alenxander in ancient greek and said about his origin of greece and macedonian city-country.....
greeks say that there is two kind of people greeks or not greeks for their education because back in ancient times everyone who doesnt have greek education it didnt have education at all
always friendly
sorry for my english
according to the map in the first page i live in skopjia and im not greek and i should not write things against skopjia are you kidding me withis map
this map is false fyrom(skopjia)is much smaller than that and i live in thessaloniki a greek city
[ This Message was edited by: superfot on 2005-10-31 13:30 ]
[ This Message was edited by: superfot on 2005-10-31 13:34 ]
[ This Message was edited by: superfot on 2005-11-08 14:35 ]
Posted by puppy22
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I you count the degree of democracy in voting numbers i cannot say anything, but democracy is not that.
freedom and democracy are not the, so please do not confuse them...
Also i will remind you that the true democracy is one of the worst political scheme you can have. the reason is that for example if the society you are living in, the majority believes that it is correct (with no reason) to take your house, it's a democratic action, cause they do what the majority wants...!!! so don't be plastic in terms but elastic.
you talked about slaves... slaves in ancient hellas had rights...!!! ancient historiants say so, not me. and also they believd so much in democracy about their society that every single decision was makeing after the voting of the people (i agree, not the women) but in the house women was the leader of the family, not the man.
Also they have trully believe that your freedom, stops at the point where my freedom begins...!!! don't confuse that with democracy... democracy is not saying what is right anf wrong, democracy says what th majority believes...! if they believe right or wrong that's another story.
So an example of bad action with democratic background is what the usa do everytime they want to attack to the middle east...! the vote and the take decision... most of the times is the wrong one, but it's a democratic one...!!
for example the so called the most democratic country of the world where you can do enything (they say so) they do not allow you to smoke OUTSIDE the buildings...!!! this is a democratic country? i believe yes it is, but what they do not taking into account is the freedom of the people.
so the fyrom people they might say whatever they want, the truth is one and only - they are wrong cause even the right to have a different opinion on true historical facts, where given by the term of "freedom of speach" and "democracy" which where given to them by hellenians...!
Posted by KingBooker5
On 2005-08-02 10:29:46, gelfen wrote:
Macedon was not an ancient greek province, but an independent kingdom formed in the 7th century BC, which became politically aligned with the rest of ancient greece in th 5th century BC. while much of the macedonian aristocracy did have greek blood, the common people were generally considered to be of a different race and origin.
prior to the expansion under Phillip II, Macedon occupied approximately the same area as the "province" of macedonia in modern greece, but under his reign grew to include the region currently referred to as fyr macedonia (btw - the reason it's called fyr is because it only constitutes the regions liberated after the breakup of yugoslavia and not in greece). the sovreignty or otherwise of macedonia has been clouded in the 20th century since the Balkan Wars, due to concerted propaganda efforts by the various countries which claimed macedonian territory in the treaty of bucharest (including serbia, greece, albania, and in post-WWII times yugoslavia) to appropriate macedonian historical icons, pass off macedonian as a language fabricated in the 20th century, and even deny the very existence of the name macedonia.
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[ This Message was edited by: gelfen on 2005-08-02 09:31 ]
lol you really need to get some facts straight. Greece was part of the mighty Roman empire in 7th BC! How can you say it was an indipendent kingdom in that time when it is clearly a fact it was part of Greece over a millenia ago. Me thinks that a certain Gelfen is jelous of Greek history.. As Redback so rightfuly states a place with no identity trying to steal the history of a great nation. Hell, if I was the Greek PM and I knew the situation of the whole Macedonia thing was gonna go like this I would threaten and invasion!
What makes me sick to my stomouch is that there is a statue of the legendary Alexander the great in the FYR Macedonia. When the FYR Macedonia clearly has nothing to do with Alexander and they have a stature of him up, how can you say there not trying to take some of the identity of Greece away?
The mighty Hellenic empire. Most of the east was the empire of Alexander. The rest was the colonies of Greece prior his birth. This is the helleic empire. Its amazing how some shallow minded people believe that Alexanders empire was part of what is now the FYR Macedonia. Amazing isnt it?
[ This Message was edited by: KingBooker5 on 2007-09-29 21:05 ]
[ This Message was edited by: KingBooker5 on 2007-09-29 21:06 ]
Posted by sealover94
Slavic people of Skopje.Be proud of being slavs and not slaves...yet...
HELLAS = MACEDONIA
[ This Message was edited by: sealover94 on 2007-09-29 22:27 ]
Posted by Bole7
The picture above thats real Macedonia.
While greeks cities were fighting between themself Athens, Sparta......
Macedonia was kingdom that deafeted greece in the time of Filip II.
In 1913 Macedonia was divided between Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria
The Republic of Macedonia that exsits today is the part that Serbia got when Macedonia was splited and now the Greeks are afraid that they'll lose their part so they are trying to proove that Macedonia was part of Greece. SO EVERY FATASS GREEK CAN f**k OF COS MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIA AND GREECE IS GREECE AND ALEXANDER IS MACEDONIAN.